Good Question!

stronger now said...

Is it "godly" to torture children for not loving you back?

How did god, a supposed "perfect" being, make creatures that are imperfect i.e., not as he would have them?

How is it "good" for this god you believe in to create beings that he knows will end up being tortured forever? Does he not know the future? Does he not care? If he does care why does he make some people that he knows he will send to hell?

"Love me or I'll hurt you" is the biblegods message.

January 18, 2009 8:57 AM

Each part of your question is best addressed on its own, and I will address them in the order that they were posed.

First, Is it "godly" to torture children for not loving you back?

I think the clear and easy response to this question is, by no means! I think it would be very difficult to make the case that the Bible teaches that such action is "godly" which is clearly the implication of the question.

Since it seems to me that Stronger Now is making the claim that the Bible does in fact teach such an abhorrent notion, let me point out where I think this blogger has gone astray from biblical truth. My assumptions are that Stronger Now believes both of the following statements to be true and biblical teachings: 1) We are all God's children; and 2) God tortures people who don't love Him back. If both of these statements are true, then it would seem that God does torture His children for not returning His love.

In reality, neither of these premises are taught in the Bible. First, 1) We are all God's children. This premise is a very popular opinion ... but it is by no means biblical. Consider these passages:

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:23

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26

Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. Galatians 4:7

The language of "adoption" and becoming sons "through faith" and no longer being a slave but becoming a "son" do not make any sense at all if the Bible teaches that we are all God's children. No one adopts their own kids. You adopt kids that are not your own previously. If we have not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, then we are not God's children but His slaves.

Now consider the words of Jesus:

"Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'? But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'" Luke 17:7-10

As slaves of God, we are commanded to obey the 10 commandments. Jesus summed up all of the law and the prophets in these two commandments: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the second is like it; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says in the above Scripture that after we have done these two things (which we all fail at daily), that our response shouldn't be "now give me my reward!" but instead should be "I am an unworthy slave, I have done only that which I ought to have done."

Quite simply, God does not "torture His children for not loving Him back." He punishes criminal slaves who disobey His righteous commandments in rebellion against Him. God's children-those whom He has adopted into His family through their faith in Jesus-are heirs to the throne and are not treated as slaves, but are given their inheritance as is proper for children to receive.

And the reason we fail to love our neighbor as ourself (afterall, who wants to be lied to, or stolen from, or talked negatively about, or laughed at, or ignored, or dishonored ... yet we do these things to other people) is a direct result of our failure to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. If we did love Him this way, then we would recognize the amazing value that each human has as a being created by Him, and would afford them the respect and honor they deserve. No one is cast into Hell just for failing to love God. They are cast into Hell for their myriad of sins, only part of which is their failure to love God in the above described way.

Next, How did god, a supposed "perfect" being, make creatures that are imperfect i.e., not as he would have them?

The answer to this question seems to be that God did create humans exactly as He would have them ... and that their imperfection was part of the plan. This follows for two reasons. First, there exists only one Perfect Being: God. To make other perfect Beings would be to create copies of God. But God does not change and He is eternal. Therefore, it would be impossible to "create" a perfect Being since the only perfect Being is uncreated.

However, God did make us "perfect" as He wanted us. Part of His design included freedom since He desires to have a relationship with us. He could have created humans as mindless beings that only stroked His ego ... but He opted for qualitatively better beings who could freely choose to accept or decline His invitation for relationship. True freedom results in there being some who will make an unwise choice. This poor choice does not mean that God made a mistake in creating free agents...it just means those free agents made a mistake in their use of their gift.

In fact, it seems to me that God's decision to make free moral agents was His greatest display of power. He could force us to love Him, but He set us free. I'm not sure that I would have been so generous if I were God ... fortunately, I'm not!

Third, How is it "good" for this god you believe in to create beings that he knows will end up being tortured forever? Does he not know the future? Does he not care? If he does care why does he make some people that he knows he will send to hell?

This question has a good amount of overlap with the prior question, namely that it is qualitatively better for God to create free moral agents and have some of them choose poorly (thus, ending up in Hell) than it is for God to create not-free beings who are forced to worship Him in heaven. There can be no relationship in the second scenario. The proof that God does know the future and of His great care is that He has declared the judgment prior to executing it, and He has provided sufficient means for all who will to accept the free gift of salvation that is available to all persons through Jesus the Christ.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.... He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:16-18, 36

I've read your profile Stronger Now, and although that only gives me very little knowledge of who you are, I believe you when you say that you are an atheist. Based on the knowledge that you have of Scripture I can't make it any clearer to you that if you go to Hell it will not be because God wanted you to go there (after all, He sent His Son for you), but because of your willful refusal to accept His gift of salvation and the opportunity to become a child of God. If you choose to die in your sins without the Savior, that's your choice. But God cannot be blamed for your final destination.

And when you behold Him in all His glory and realize that you could have spent eternity with Him ... it's no surprise that your eternity away from Him could be described as being full of "weeping and gnashing of teeth." The amazing truth is this: I know that I don't deserve Heaven ... I'm not perfect. Neither are you. Only perfect people deserve Heaven. But God has provided a way for you and me to be adopted into His family and therefore enjoy the full benefits of being an heir. God by no means "tortures His children" and His care for both you and me is immense. If you don't care enough to accept what He's done for you ... well, that's a different matter entirely.

Finally, "Love me or I'll hurt you" is the biblegods message.

This statement is just false.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Romans 5:6-11

The God of the Bible's message is that He's going to love you no matter what. If you decide that you must be damned for your own sins, He'll let you. But he'd rather let you let Him pay for them.

If I've failed to address any of your concerns, please let me know. As always, if you have further questions feel free to leave them in the comments section.